Chrysanne Stathacos :<\/strong> Well, I\u2019m certainly not the only one who experienced the trauma of AIDS with the loss of so many friends within our community. This pandemic brings back a lot of those emotions, memories, and spirits. AIDS began in the early to mid-1980s with our friends getting sick and starting to die. We were trying to find a way to heal our friends\u200a\u2014\u200ayou could be there as a support person, but you couldn\u2019t take the disease away. I started going to psychics at that time. My friends AA [Bronson] and Rob [Robert Flack, 1957\u200a\u2014\u200a1993] did too. We had readings with the Reverend Bias [Clifford Bias, 1910\u200a\u2014\u200a1987], who lived in the Ansonia Hotel; he was a prominent psychic in early-twentieth-century America who claimed to communicate with the dead. I was exploring metaphysical spaces, trying to find answers and hope while becoming more drawn to and invested in spirituality. For a while, I went to the Spiritualist Church, a church founded by the Reverend Bias, who was connected to a lot of psychics and channellers (mostly gay men and middle-aged women from the Upper West Side of New York). There was a witchcraft store on 9th Street in the East Village, and we used to go there and get elaborate candles made. We would say what we wanted, and they would carve them and decorate them with glitter and oils. Once home, one would light them and pray. The store doesn\u2019t exist anymore. It\u2019s one of those lost places in New York City, from a very specific time. All those activities I did in the 1980s affected my work in the 1990s. My investigations included spending two weeks in Delphi trying to find the oracle, the readings at the Spiritualist Church, the candles from the witchcraft store, and doing meditations and rituals with Rob on my roof. In retrospect, that time led me to explore Tibetan Buddhism.<\/p>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002Could you tell me a bit about those rituals, who was involved, and how these activities became integrated into the art scene? <\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002When I first moved to New York, I would go to this Indian restaurant called Gaylords, with Rob and AA. We would go there and have Indian food, and then meet the Indian psychic, this old man who would look at our palms and astrological charts. Rob and I shared a desire to investigate other worlds. I had a studio on Centre Street and had access to the roof. There were specific times when Rob and I would perform rituals\u200a\u2014\u200afor example, for the great Mayan Harmonic Convergence in 1987, the world\u2019s first synchronized global peace meditation. We were on the roof of the studio, doing rituals, and Rob would read from his Dakini tarot deck. Our hope was to summon a better time. Maybe it will still come. In 1990, there started to be a few exhibitions converging around life, death, choice, and the metaphysical realm. My friend Amy Lipton (1956\u200a\u2014\u200a2020) invited the writer G. Roger Denson to curate Reconciling the Unverified: The New Metaphysical Art<\/em> (1990) for her gallery. In 1992, Amy curated a show commemorating the women prosecuted and killed at the Salem Witch trials (Shapeshifters<\/em>), with many women artists, including Karen Finley and Sue Williams. We were interested in other-worldly things. Amy had a large broom collection\u200a\u2014\u200aover twenty-five of them. I have an ancient broom here that I found last year on the street, a couple of months before she died. I was hoping to take it to her but, sadly, it\u2019s here with a painting. It has become part of a painting. I think of her when I look at it every day. In 1989 I created an alter ego, Anne de Cybelle; she became a vehicle for my writings, installations, and performance works, especially those connected to rituals. These were things we explored at a time when the art world didn\u2019t totally embrace the idea of the word \u201cwitch\u201d or \u201cspirituality.\u201d Now you see the art world totally embracing the word \u201cwitch\u201d; what they really think is that they\u2019re bitches! Witch equals bitch. Most aren\u2019t really interested in what witches do or did or died for. Because what a witch does is really focus on Mother Earth: it is about rituals, oils, candles, healing with herbs, being a midwife, talking to animals and the earth, the sky, the stars, the moon. It is the universe in an altar. There is a movement now of eco-feminists whose art practices are also closely connected to these ideas. In 1991, Kathe Burkhart and I presented The Abortion Project<\/em> (1991\u200a\u2014\u200a93), a pro-choice installation. We were looking at \u201cManifesto of the 343\u201d (1971) published in Le Nouvel Observateur<\/em> by Simone de Beauvoir (a French petition signed by 343 women who, as de Beauvoir pointed out, had the courage to say, \u201cI declare that I have had an abortion\u201d). It was an act of civil disobedience, since abortion was illegal in France, and by admitting publicly to having aborted, they exposed themselves to criminal prosecution.<\/p>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002Some of the things you just mentioned, such as the connection between spiritual practice andThe Abortion Project<\/em>, bring me back to the elements of witchcraft that have to do with life and death. Women, for ages, have used abortifacient plants and methods to perform abortions. Something about that use of plants for non-prescribed purposes echoes Salem: the ideas of women using unauthorized substances to control life and death are seen as witchy and threatening. But it\u2019s also just women trying to control their own destiny.<\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002On occasion, I have done some prints of plants that were abortifacients, and a lot of them are weeds you would see in the park, like mistletoe. Witches were healers. They were not patriarchal. Since the Middle Ages, the patriarchy and the doctors of the patriarchy wanted to control the women healers who were working with nature and healing people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002Another thing that you mentioned is the broom, which also has the connotation of being bunches of plants, medicinal and meaningful combinations, as well as the gendered art of flower arranging and its relationship with proto-pharmaceutical and medicinal practices.<\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002I think the poetic idea of getting on the broom is about flying, escaping, going, seeing the world. Seeing the universe truly and going beyond, so I think it\u2019s one of magic, absolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002Both the broom and the mirror room (1-900 Mirror Mirror<\/em>, 1993\u200a\u2014\u200a94) also have this sort of element of fairy tale magic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002The design for 1-900 Mirror Mirror<\/em> was based on taking a phone booth and opening it up. I printed ivy, hair, and roses on the mirrors. Those are my trademark witchy items: the hair of the witch, the ivy, which is related to Dionysus and Bacchanalia rituals, and then the roses: the blood of the rose. My rose works are always deeply connected with AIDS. The roses would go through the press, or I would press them, and the blood of the rose would come out. Robert Flack died in October 1993 as I was conceiving 1-900 Mirror Mirror<\/em>. In 1994, my good friends, the artists David Buchan, Jorge Zontal, and Felix Partz, passed away. It was a time when you were afraid to answer the phone; looking back, in terms of the body politic and the art being made at that time, for many people it was an exceptionally creative and moving moment filled with broken hearts. The mirrored room became a ritualized way for people to reach the beyond. I was studying tarot at that point with the famous psychic Frank Andrews. I worked as a phone-line tarot reader for a few weeks, as research. When I started studying with Frank, he looked at me and said, \u201cYou could become a reader for a living, but you can\u2019t do both.\u201d<\/p>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002In the past, we\u2019ve talked about the mandala in your work and its significance to Buddhism, especially throughout India. You brought up the notion that mandalas were present in the ancient Greek landscape.<\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002The formation of a mandala is a global archetype. In all religions and all cultures, the circle is significant. It\u2019s the wheel of life, and it\u2019s also a protective symbol. I\u2019m a practising Buddhist, but I was brought up in the Greek Orthodox tradition. My focus, even within that, is always to look back to the ancients. The ancients right now are inspiring a whole new generation of contemporary artists and playwrights, who are reading Aristophanes and Euripides, and are looking at the Medusa iconography. Indian culture, like Greek and many other cultures, has gods and goddesses: archetypal figures. <\/p>\n\n\n\n The interesting thing about the ancients is their relevance to psychology, which is still resonant today. Athena had an image of Medusa on her shield. These images\u200a\u2014\u200athe witch, the ugly woman, \u201cnasty women,\u201d and the Mati (\u201cevil eye\u201d)\u200a\u2014\u200aare protective symbols.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002Coming back to AIDS and the widespread medical practice of making things difficult for certain people\u200a\u2014\u200awomen and queer and racialized people\u200a\u2014\u200a, which creates a complication in this move away from the holistic toward the formalized. As you said, there\u2019s a return to witchcraft now, specifically because there are very few spaces of refuge in the bureaucratic system. And because we can no longer wield that healing in the psychological realm, we seek it in the artistic sphere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002That\u2019s interesting is how the corporate sphere infringes on these holistic practices. For example, museums now practise meditation or mindfulness in the middle of the day. I think it\u2019s great, but those museums very rarely include the artists and the people who have been doing these practices for a long time. And there\u2019s a precedent for it in the eco-art movement: artists and social justice activists who use holistic methods. By breathing in and out, and in the midst, there is transfiguration, a transformation toward something positive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002In this re-emergence, do you find a lot of camaraderie, and do you meet many other people in contemporary art practising forms of magic?<\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002I recently participated in the 13th Gwangju Biennale: Minds Rising, Spirits Tuning<\/em>, 2021. My work The Three Dakini Mirrors (of the body, speech and mind)<\/em> (2021) was installed in the Gwangju National Museum, in the section The Undead from Four Directions (A dialogue with conceptions of death, reparation of spirit-objects and processes of mourning). <\/em>I did a Zoom conversation with Tibetan Buddhist nun Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo with questions asked by the Biennale\u2019s curatorial team, who were interested in spirituality and cutting through the patriarchal challenges of religion. The point is that it\u2019s important for the world to consider the histories of people who have been ostracized, suppressed, or murdered. When you study Buddhism, it\u2019s all about compassion, interdependence; everything is connected. Again, that\u2019s the wheel of life and the mandala. The core of human nature, the best of human nature, the best of human action; we can all access it if we wish. To understand that. Not only to have compassion for people, but to be one with the environment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002I wanted to come back to the beginning of our conversation, when you were talking about spirits coming and bringing a lot of stress with them. I want to reflect on the social life of spirits. The life that doesn\u2019t end with death but comes back in many ways and forms. What kinds of spirits are you living with these days? <\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002Well, in the past three years, I\u2019ve lost three people very close to me: my brother and my two closest confidantes and spiritual girlfriends. And you want to hold on to them. It\u2019s this connection, with Rob and General Idea\u2019s artworks that I have in my home, that brought solace during the past year of lockdown. My friends are still with me. Then there\u2019s the ancestral Greek family, which is always there. But with all of them\u200a\u2014\u200aI know this is going to sound strange\u200a\u2014\u200aif I think about them, I can hear their voices in my head. Memories are transcendent. And then they stay inside you, like your ancestors, our contemporaries, and the ancients. It makes me wonder if this new interest in spirituality is being generated by spirits who have come back to influence the state of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n XB :<\/strong>\u2002What can you tell me about the future? <\/p>\n\n\n\n CS :<\/strong>\u2002So, in two to three years, Pluto will move into Aquarius from Capricorn. Capricorn is capitalism, big business, and all that. As it passes through the end of Capricorn, in February 2022, it will be conjunct to the United States\u2019 natal Pluto (245 years ago, during the time of the American revolution). It\u2019s going to be either frightful or excellent, but once it is in Aquarius, it\u2019s a very open free sign. I\u2019m looking at these planets because I study astrology. They\u2019re the outer planets, and Pluto is the under-god. It\u2019s the planet of transformation. There is a big change coming.<\/p>\n\n\n![\"Chrysanne-Stathacos_AnnedeCybelle_CondomMask\"](\"https:\/\/esse.ca\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/04\/105_DO_Benivolski_Chrysanne-Stathacos_AnnedeCybelle_CondomMask_CMYK-scaled.jpg\")
Anne de Cybelle Condom Mask, <\/em>1991.
Photo : courtesy of the artist<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n![\"Chrysanne-Stathacos_TheAbortionProject_expoition_1991\"](\"https:\/\/esse.ca\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/05\/105_DO_Benivolski_Chrysanne-Stathacos_TheAbortionProject_expo_CMYK-edited-1-scaled.jpg\")
The Abortion Project, <\/em>installation view, Artists Space,
New York, 1991.
Photo : courtesy of Artists Space, New York<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n![\"Chrysanne-Stathacos_1-900MirrorMirror\"](\"https:\/\/esse.ca\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/04\/105_DO_Benivolski_Chrysanne-Stathacos_1-900MirrorMirror_04_CMYK-scaled.jpg\")
1-900 Mirror Mirror<\/em>, 1993-2020, installation view, Cooper Cole, Toronto, 2020.
Photo : courtesy of the artist & Cooper Cole, Toronto<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n\n\n
![\"Chrysanne-Stathacos_Biennale\"](\"https:\/\/esse.ca\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/04\/105_DO_Benivolski_Chrysanne-Stathacos_Biennale_CMYK.jpg\")
The Three Dakini Mirrors (of the body, speech and mind)<\/em>, installation view, 13th Gwangju Biennale, 2021.
Photo : Sang tae Kim, courtesy of the artist & The Breeder Gallery, Athens<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n